Summary: The OHRC has launched a new podcast series to explore the issues, stories, and movements that shape human rights in Ontario. This first episode features Chief Commissioner Patricia DeGuire and Former Executive Director Michael Harris in conversation on how the OHRC is responding to times of change.
[Purple title screen: Human Rights in Ontario: Let’s talk about it with a logo that says Celebrating 65 and the Ontario Human Rights Commission logo. ]
Introduction
VOICEOVER: Welcome and thank you for joining us. This podcast is brought to you by the Ontario Human Rights Commission, dedicated to advancing and protecting human rights across Ontario.
Episode Intro
[Head and shoulders shot of Jennifer Igbokwe, a Black woman]
Jennifer (host): Hello, my name is Jennifer Igbokwe, and I am with the Ontario Human Rights Commission. This year marks a significant milestone: the 65th anniversary of the OHRC. For more than six decades, the Commission has played a vital role in protecting and promoting human rights in Ontario. Through this podcast series, we invite you—our listeners—to reflect on that legacy, explore the evolution of the Commission’s work, and gain deeper insight into how the OHRC continues to advance equality, dignity, and justice for all.
Before we begin our conversation today, I’m pleased to introduce our guests.
Our first guest is Patricia DeGuire – Chief Commissioner of the OHRC. Patricia is a Black woman who pushes boundaries to ensure access to justice and equality. Before being appointed Chief Commissioner, Patricia served as a Deputy Judge at the Ontario Superior Court of Justice, on various tribunals and boards, and is known as an impactful mediator.
Our next guest is Michael Harris, a dedicated public servant and former Executive Director of the OHRC, whose career spans nearly four decades. Michael joined the OHRC in 1991 and he was instrumental in guiding the Commission’s historic 2008 transition toward a stronger focus on systemic human rights issues. His leadership shaped landmark initiatives such as the Inquiry into Racial Profiling by the Toronto Police Service, the Right to Read Inquiry, and the Action Plan on Anti-Black Racism in Education.
We’re honoured to have both of them on this first episode. Let’s dive in.
[Cut to three people in a room sitting in a row. Michael Harris, a Black man in a suit is on the left. Patricia DeGuire, a Black woman in a colourful yellow print, is in the middle. Jennifer Igbokwe is on the right]
Jennifer: So Patricia, welcome, Michael, welcome. And thank you both so much for joining us in the middle of February, where it is insanely cold, but you still took out the time. We are sincerely grateful, I know I am. So this first question is for Patricia. Patricia, why do you think it's pertinent to launch a podcast now?
Patricia: You know, that's an excellent question. And really, what it bears out to show you how much up to date, the Ontario Human Rights Commission is, with its thumb on the pulse of the community, especially in technology. And one of the things we keep thinking about at the Commission is how we can remain relevant and reach everyone. As you know, Ontario has over 16.1 million people. And we want to be able to reach everyone. And communication is the best tool. And there are many, you know, infrastructures in communication. And we have today the infamous AI, we have social media of every kind. I think I've choked to even mention the number of names. And we have LinkedIn, we have X, and we have Facebook. But the Commission is intentional about reaching the widest possible audiences, from the cradle to, and we'll put a stop on that. But we just want to reach everyone to tell them about, I call it good news, but it's not new good news that we are so privileged to live in a democratic society where we can claim our rights. And we want to share with everyone that human rights is not just about a piece of legislation. Human rights is for us to realize the joy of living in a democratic society where we can enjoy your rights. And if you didn't hear this before, I want to tell you this. Where there's rights, there's responsibilities. And everyone has a responsibility to ensure that we foster a human rights culture in Ontario. And to everyone, it's a little grain of sand or a drop of water. And if everyone takes that responsibility, we would have a more beautiful Ontario.
Jennifer: So the second question is: the OHRC's mandate has been to promote human rights and dismantle systemic discrimination. The OHRC is going to clock 65 this year. So how has that looked from 1961 to present day? That's a lot of years.
Michael: I echo the Chief Commissioner's comments about human rights. It's about, to me, the word human captures the essence of the Code. It signifies the value of each individual. It signifies the equal rights and dignity that each individual should have and should experience naturally.
Jennifer: Patricia, do you have anything to add to that?
Patricia: I like that, Michael. And people need to understand “human” - you are human. So these are inalienable rights. Or we could say that they're God-given rights. And so when people say people should pass legislation, it's a good idea. But the legislation is a guardrail to show people what they need to do to stay within the requirements of the law.
Because if we do, if you do not have any guardrails, people would, you know, do whatever they like. It's like the Criminal Code. It's not that we are thinking that everybody would commit a crime, but the Criminal Code, they're there, as you know, guardrails so people could understand, you know, the boundaries that society is able to, or will tolerate before they, you know, they put people in. So yeah, Michael, I like that. It's that, that human element of the rights. And we enjoy, in fact, I enjoy helping people to enjoy their rights. It's not, it's not a punishment. It's celebrating humanity, yeah? It is that: celebrating your humanity.
Michael: And the unfortunate thing is that because that has not happened naturally, you needed the Code. We needed the Code. The province needed the Code. And so, you know, the initial Code in what, 61-62? It only really had six protected grounds, yeah. It had race, creed, color, nationality, ancestry, and place of origin. Yeah. Right. However, the Code evolved over the years. By the time I came to the Commission in 1991, the Code had been around for about 30 years.
Jennifer: I don't think I was born then.
Michael: Yeah, and the first major amendment to the Code came in 1981 after the Commission in 1977 issued a report called Life Together. That report was a combination of broad consultation throughout Ontario on the issue of human rights. And it made several recommendations, including adding grounds to the Code. Some of those grounds were sex, age, marital status, family status and disability, which was then called, handicap. And since ‘81, I guess the Code has gone through several iteration of amendments to give us the current Code that we had today with those with 17 grounds.
Patricia: And I think that that is such an important point, Michael, because it’s pointing out to the listeners that the Code is not static, that there is an evolution to the Code. And whenever there are changes to the Code, what it does is it considers the current state of our society. So to take, for example, I really don't even know the population of Ontario—but in 1961, that was motivated by the United--the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And it is so interesting, and I'm inviting listeners to check out the preamble of the Code. It really is a mirroring of the--the United--the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And it still remains, because that is so fundamental. And so we, even though we are embracing changes, there are things that remain constant. And the constants--you know, the consistency, is basically pointing out to that comment Michael made about being human beings. And so, we remain human beings. But also, we know that Ontario has grown significantly. It was the first province to introduce a Human Rights Code. Since then, though, as Michael said, there have been changes. And now we have a population of over 16.1 million, perhaps one of the most diverse places on earth. And so, to be able to live in a fair and democratic society, we must take into consideration the interest, and the needs, and the inclusion of everyone. And again, we also must remember that no one lives a single access life. And so we must look at the person in the whole. As we say in some theories, that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. But we still have to look at the different things that, the different elements of a person's life.
And one person may have, you know, religion, gender, sexual orientation, all in one. We cannot just simply say, we can only look at one element of the Code. We cannot look at just one part of the Code. I can see your gender and they go with the gender. You have to look at the whole individual. And that is what the Ontario Human Rights Commission intentionally does towards inclusion.
And we must take an inclusive approach, because the whole goal is to ensure that every Ontarian, doesn't matter whether you're a citizen, a refugee, it doesn't matter, if you're in Ontario, you’re an Ontarian, the Code applies to you. And it is our obligation to ensure that everyone enjoys their human rights. And that, to me, is a significant aspect of inclusion and belonging.
Michael: You know, and as we, you know, we think about where we are today and we think about the things we take for granted. You asked a question about systemic change. You know, there was a time when the Commission actually investigated, mediated and resolved complaints, you know? Anyway, on average, there was a time where the Commission would see anywhere from 2000 to 3000 complaints a year.
Jennifer: Oh, wow.
Michael: And would investigate, mediate or resolve those complaints. The Commission also established guidelines policy to help Ontarians, with their rights and responsibilities, as the Chief Commissioner just said. But in terms of systemic change, here’s some things that Ontarians, many Ontarians may not know. We see them, but we do not know their origin. And these are some notable systemic changes that came through the work of the Commission.
Accessible public transit: today, we're hearing more and more about public transit being accessible, the need for it to be accessible. That came from the Commission's work in time past.
Patricia: And, you know—
Michael: So the announcements you hear on the subway, that came from the Commission's work, you know. “We’re now reaching Bloor,” whatever the stop may be, that came from the Commission's work.
Adults, those of us who have children, banning adult-only apartments and condos. That came from the Commission. There was a time when if you had children, you could not live in certain places.
Jennifer: Really?
Michael: Yes, yes, really. You could not live in certain places. That came from the Commission's work. Banning that practice came from the Commission.
The use of service animals. You know, that came from the Commission’s work. A mother’s right to breastfeed in public, that came from the Commission's work. You said that I was the former executive director of the Ontario Rights Commission. I recently retired by choice. There was a time when I, you know, once I reached a certain age, I did not have a choice. I had to retire. Through the work of the Commission that age 65 mandatory retirement has disappeared. That was the result of the Commission. So, those are some of the examples of systemic changes that have happened over the years.
Patricia: And you know, Michael, thank you for those because every one of those situations you mentioned, as Vice Chair of the Human Rights Tribunal, I adjudicated many of those cases. For example, the TTC case, where you had the service as well, although it happened in two cases. We had the service, the vehicle, and we had—
Michael: the WheelTrans
Patricia: The WheelTrans, and the underground. And so it's to see that the changes over time, so that even when the Commission shifted from handling individual cases, it still made a significant impact when it switched. The mandate was switched to a systemic one. And it has gone very, very far. And you mentioned the, the disability aspect of things. You mentioned the age aspect of things. And there was another one you mentioned. Well, age was retirement.
Michael: Family status – mothers…
Patricia: And the mother breastfeeding. I remember adjudicating a case and when the parties came in, before me on the case and we spoke about the policy and the Commission had said that policy, I brought it up to the parties, and the matter was resolved right there. Right there. Instead of going into that hearing that we had planned for—3, 4 day hearing, I brought it out and I said, you know, the Commission has done this after involving communities and finding out, how these negative rules are impacting on--on people and mothers. And the case was resolved without a hearing. And I think this is to show the public that the, the Commission really contributes significantly to peace, order, and good government, and to the fairness of our society and to the democratic values. And let me add another one. I'm sure people probably heard about the bathhouse scandal. And at that point, to be someone, you know, LGBTQ person, your sexual orientation was a big no-no. People would lose their jobs, their housing for all of those reasons, because that person had a different way of life. Now, thanks to the Commission, not the Commission alone, but other people that, we know that people, LGBTQS and two-spirited people, they still suffer discrimination. But they are specifically handled within the, within the human rights spaces. And people who, who, you know, discriminate, discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation, they can find themselves in really hot water. And that is the reason why, again, I say that we all, to treat one another, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You shouldn't have to go around the place putting on a sign on you, and say, be nice to me because I'm LGBTQ or two-spirited. Or, you know, keep me at the workplace, I'm over the age. I think that there should be a commitment, and not one retention, a commitment of joy to be contributing the way that you could towards maintaining a fair and just society. And let me reinforce. I would say the majority of people who live in Canada, Ontario, they came here because of the values—that they have heard about or later experienced. And so everyone has that opportunity to maintain those values. These are values that are so important that people abandon their own place of birth to come to live here. And so I think that there should be an intentional, conscientious act that I am going to contribute to, so that what I came here to enjoy continues.
Jennifer: How is the OHRC responding to current times of change, like, initiatives? What does the OHRC do to help bring a semblance of humanity? If I should phrase it that way.
Patricia: You know, I want to start by talking about a foundational aspect of our society. And that's education. And the Ontario Human Rights Commission has done a lot of work on education over the years. And because, I mean, this is my interpretation and I think it's right, because of how important education is to the growth of our society. When I talk about growth, I'm talking about personal growth, the individual; societal growth; and political growth; economic growth. That's a pivotal point. And so, lately, we have delved into education qua education, its impact on children. So we look at education from from K-to-wherever. But lately we took, to inquire into the right to read. And the right to read – again, literacy is so pivotal in our society. And as a child, I used to think if you can’t read, you’re a nobody. So to bring that full force, to preserve the rights of children, especially the most vulnerable. And when I say vulnerable, that includes children who are, who have learning disabilities. We started looking at children with dyslexia and it goes beyond dyslexia. Children who have different learning disabilities, and whose, who are unable to learn because of societal barriers. For example, people who come from, multicultural society, and where the parents do not know English. And Canada is English and French. And if you're outside of those, those two languages, you can find yourself having difficulties learning in school. And so the children have difficulties. They also have difficulties because of, in their own communities, they have, multiple precarities, food precarities, with housing, health and children go to school, if they are not in that state of mind, a learning state of mind, they have barriers to their learning. And so we looked at the Canadian landscape on education, and found out that the Supreme Court of Canada had actually endorsed what we already knew, that children have a human right to learn. And so that became the foundation for the right to read. And I would pause to say that I am very pleased that it was accepted, by the Government of Ontario. And many efforts have been made towards that. And right along the trajectory of education, we have Dreams Delayed, an Action Plan to combat anti-Black racism in Ontario’s public education system. And so while the right to read is in this context focusing on the ability to seize the actual learning of letters and phonics, etc. So Dreams Delayed is actually talking about the environment that children are forced to learn in. And that in itself is a barrier because it's so discriminatory or the harassment that they meet.
So those are big issues for us right now. And I would say here that any government on this planet, when they are going to put their minds to creating strategic investment, education must be number one. Because it's by education you develop your future economies, your future workforce, etc., etc.. So I think that it is and I say that that the Human Rights Commission is right up there leading the path in, in ensuring that we have a well-educated, well informed education system, not for them personally, for the empowerment, etc., but also to address systemic issues of discrimination and systemic issues that really goes beyond one generation to the other. And I think that, that's a good piece. I'm going to shift to Michael, because you might have a couple of other things that you want to add with respect to truth and reconciliation, for example. And also on the police file.
Michael: You know, I think it's important for the public to understand that the Commission exists.
Jennifer: Yes.
Michael: And that the things that Chief Commissioner has just described are happening. I think this podcast, hopefully, will help the public understand that the Commission exists. You know, Patricia talked earlier about the Code being a guide, a guide for living. You know, we really shouldn't have a Code to guide us on how to live, but because we are human beings, we need a Code. And we at the Commission are here to help folks through the understanding of that Code. So, Patricia talked about, you know, Dreams Delayed, the Right to Read. To me what comes out of those two things. And you talked about, there's the Toronto Police and the historical anti-Black racism by the Toronto police. There's the truth and reconciliation. There's, another report called Interrupted Childhoods, where predominantly Black and Indigenous children are being seized by societies. These are things that the Commission fights against. Why? Because we should not be subjected to discrimination in any form. Ultimately, that's what it is. We should be able to have a discrimination-free education system. We should be able to have a discrimination-free policing system. We should be able to have a discrimination-free service system, wherever it may be. We should be able to have a discrimination-free society. And that's why the Commission exists. And those are some of the challenges that the Commission continues to battle. Today.
Patricia: But there’s a sweet side to that, though. The Commission has actually, in all this where we talk about the Right to Read, and Dreams Delayed, and the Toronto Police. But what the Commission has actually noticed that to assist people in, especially duty-holders, in complying with the Code, it's creating tools to assist them to understand “what is your obligation?”. And not only that, it's also providing tools for preventative approach to human rights. For example, they've got—at a corporation, you are going to build or create some new policy. That human rights-based approach will guide you to what you need to put into this policy, so that from the very beginning, you are able to instill human rights concepts into where you're going. So you're preventing. And I really believe an ounce of prevention is better than a whole pound of cure. Another thing the Ontario Human Rights Commission is big about, Michael, you know, the collaborating.We collaborate with our partners all the time. Even in developing tools, we collaborate with the Information and Privacy Commission in co-creating and and providing guidance for the government in how to look at AI today. And the Ontario government has their directives and the Ontario Human Rights Commission and the Information and Privacy Commissioner together have created principles that when you use those things together, they are veritable tools to protect discrimination by AI. So we are just, you know…We're in the present.
Michael: It speaks to you having the Commission having its finger on the pulse of the community.
Patricia: Yeah, the pulse – yes. We have our thumb on the pulse of the community. And we like to, as well, because we service other government areas as well. We build relationships with government ministries and help them to understand even before they begin to do what, how to--how to navigate. And I, I think that Michael made the point and I want to reinforce that point. The Commission, yes, people call it a watchdog.
Jennifer: Yes.
Patricia: But I would say that a watchdog who is alert to the needs of human rights in our communities, to encourage people to walk the path, not setting, not an institution with a club on Whack-A-Mole…where it just—rights are too precious to just have them complied with by whacking people on the head. We like to show people the importance of, of those rights and help them how to to incorporate those rights, to include those rights in the work that they do, whether it's in the public or private sector of work, whether it's in housing, whether it whether it's in policing. That's really how, how the Ontario Human Rights Commission wants the public to perceive them as people who are assisting them to enjoy life, and not people who are goading them to comply--
Michael: forcing them…
Patricia: with rules.
Michael: And speak to the benefit of those rights to them as well.
Patricia: Exactly.
Michael: So it's not only to the third person, but it's to you. You benefit from those rights as well.
Patricia: That's right. That's right. So rights is everybody's business.
Michael: Everyone’s.
Patricia: Everybody's business.
Jennifer: What do you both think the next 65 years hold for the future of the Commission and Human Rights Act?
Patricia: [laughter] 65 years? I hope by then I’m in heaven.
Michael: [laughter] That’s a long time.
Jennifer: [laughter]
Patricia: But if we are still on Earth, we, we have, our continued commitment to dismantling systemic discrimination. And, you know, we are human beings. Every one of us is fallible. And so we always must have ways to preserve what we have. And so we want to have greater emphasis on accountability and measurement of outcomes. We're going to expand in our collaboration and partnership. And I cannot wait to get to that point where people would ring me up and say, you know, I've got this big education project. I want the Ontario Human Rights Commission to come and work with us. We want your expertise, what--we're going to pay for the whole thing that, that, that that's music to my ears. And we also, you know, a great piece that I want to emphasize, I noticed from my global, my pulse-taking, communities are becoming more and more significant in addressing systemic issues of all kinds And so I am hoping that we’ll be able to be more engaging with communities. I see now, when we did the Toronto Police, we had the community consultation. When we did the Right to Read, we had the roundtable. And Dreams Delayed as well, community consultation. And you know why that is good? We are humble servants serving the public interest. We can only know what is important to the public if we communicate with the public and give them the opportunity to help to create those services or remedies--we think--that we need to maintain our society. And so that inclusion, no matter which way you turn it, it's all about inclusion, inclusion. And because we are such a diverse society, we're talking about inclusion and diversity because the central aspect of the Code and our Charter of Rights and Freedoms is about substantive equality. And so when people, when we engage the community, we are able to identify, too, the people who are, who would need a different kind of treatment, because that's what substantive equality is all about, is to giving people equal opportunity. And sometimes we have to treat people differently for them to achieve substantive equality. So it's not about…what do people refer to it as? Reverse discrimination? Absolutely not. It’s giving citizens that wonderful opportunity to help their fellow brother or sister or whatever have you. So I think that the future is rich with possibilities. And it also includes our youth. Oh, how I have the passion to have human rights infused in our youth and get them to be as passionate about it, perhaps from a different perspective, but still passionate about it.
And so we are engaging them in social media in every which way we can. But we need to hold those things in mind that given our society, 16.1 million people from all over the world! Diversity. And we want to belong. People came here because they want to belong. So I think we've got to take that substantive equality. Oh, that is so rich, Michael. That substantive equality concept. Get the communities together and how we can make people accountable for their conduct so that we can have that strong sense of belonging. I think somewhere in one of the provinces or cities in in Ontario, they say diversity is our strength, but we can only have strength if we tow that line.
Jennifer: So yes, our last question for the day, since you both are guests, we would like to ask if there is any message or anything you would like to tell the Ontarians.
Patricia: I want to remind Ontarians how privileged they are to live in a democratic society where they can enjoy their rights. Foundational to that is our democratic society. Human rights are the foundation of a society where we can each contribute fully and meaningfully to the best of all abilities. I have never seen our democracy in Western culture dithering so much with tension. And as an incurable insomniac, that spurs my insomnia, because I wonder if people understand how important democracy is. And we can go to school. We can go to worship wherever we want, we can shop wherever we want, etc. albeit. But this is not a perfect society because of our democracy. And because, again, I can't repeat more of the importance of human rights to our democracy. We should be courageous to defend our democracy. We should be mindful to ensure that we do not selfishly enjoy our rights to the exclusion of someone not enjoying their rights. And so I really remind everyone to take a human rights-based approach to whatever you do. And this is really the vision of the Code. And you can do so. You begin with yourself. Self-awareness. What can I learn or unlearn? How can I share what I know with other people? But you got to begin with self.
Michael: We live in a world that's changing. We live in a country that's changing. We live in a province that's changing. The value of a human being should never change, no matter where you go. Someone, I think, Chief Commissioner, or one of you earlier said that people are leaving their homelands to come to, let's say, Canada because of the stated values that Canada espouses. When they come here, they must see that stated value or those stated values. I would say to you, think about your dreams for a safe and respectful society for you, your children, and your family. Then I would say to you, think about the same thing for others because they, too, have dreams of a safe and respectful society for them and their family.
Patricia: That's so powerful, Michael.
Michael: 16.1 million Ontarians, 16.1 million Ontarians, you know, let me wrap it this way. We are many peoples--and I purposely say “peoples”--living in one Ontario. But we can be one people living in one Ontario if we just show the value of human life.
Jennifer: This discussion is pertinent, I believe. And like you said, there's so much change happening in the world, but the concept of human rights should not change. Like Patricia said, it should get better. It should get better, you know? And I think that’s honestly a beautiful way to wrap up our first episode. So thank you both for the time to come here and give our listeners just a preview of--or a preamble, if I should say so, of what the Commission fights for every day--is fighting for and will continue to fight for. Right? Because as Patricia said, I also believe it's a great investment of our time.
I mean, so to our listeners listening, I hope you enjoyed hearing from our incredible guests, because I know I did, and I hope, I hope you gained a deeper understanding of the work the Commission does every day at the Ontario Human Rights Commission
So this is just the beginning. There is much more to explore. We have more stories. We have more episodes coming, hopefully. And yes, we have more insights to share with you all. So thank you so much. And stay safe and keep warm.
Outro
[Purple slide: Thank you for listening with the words “Celebrating 65” with the OHRC logo]
VOICEOVER: Thank you for listening. To learn more about how you can help advance human rights in Ontario, visit ohrc.on.ca and follow us on social media for updates and resources. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with your network to keep the conversation going. Together, we can build a province where human rights are realized for everyone. Until next time.